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randomsome1 ([info]randomsome1) wrote,
@ 2008-06-03 23:32:00

Previous Entry  Add to memories!  Tell a Friend!  Next Entry
Entry tags:linktasm, rant

Sanctioned abuse = “freedom of religion”?
The state of Texas recently ruled that the child protection services acted wrongly when they took all the children from the FLDS cult in Utah and put them into temporary state care. Their reasoning, in a 6-3 decision, is that the children weren’t in “imminent danger” (with the dissenting judges noting the danger still applied to any pubescent female children).

This left me in a bit of a strange place. I don’t like their decision in the least bit, but I understand.

It doesn’t matter to the Texas supreme court that this group is teaching its children that their particular sort of gender dichotomy is their only way to get to heaven, that rape is a-okay, that education is unnecessary (especially if you’re female), that it’s fine for a fifty year old man to marry twelve and thirteen year old girls and that those pesky extra boys need to be kicked out onto the street so the older men can have all the wives they need to get that extra-special place at God’s table. It doesn’t really matter to them how women and their children in this sect are parceled out like property should their husband fall out of favor, are trapped into getting only incredibly sub-standard medical treatment, are medicated if not institutionalized should they express dissatisfaction with their lives, and are told they can only get into heaven if invited by their husbands. It also apparently doesn’t matter how the group imposes upon its members that the outside world, with all of its intact horrors and revelations and progressions, is really absolute evil. That doesn’t matter.

And for a surprising number of laypeople commenting on the news stories, everything these kids had to “look forward” to became null and void in light of the mothers who could only continually repeat how they wanted their poor babies back. In the meantime, the poor babies—for whatever reason—wouldn’t rise up and decry the actions of the only family they know. (Where’ve we seen this behavior before? Oh, here, and in relation to various cults & abusive situations. I believe we like to call it Stockholm syndrome.) And if the poor babies would honestly say which parent was their real parent, we might be in business.


But no. No matter the stories we've seen, the tales told, the utterly god-awful things these people have to endure which slowly leak out, bit by hiccuping bit, to the completely overloaded social workers. They don't come into play here.

The deciding factor to these kids being put back with their parents is that they won’t necessarily or immediately be booted out, force-married, institutionalized, drugged, possibly murdered, and/or raped if they return. There’s a significant likelihood, though. I’m seeing things from the viewpoint of the CPS here: Just because a parent beat the shit out of a kid before and might do it again doesn’t necessarily mean they’ll do it immediately, or even that they’re guaranteed to repeat the offense. But I sure as hell wouldn’t trust them. And if you factor in how this theoretical parent is as self-justified as only a fanatic can be, how they’ve got a pervasive pattern of abuse, and that they’ve got a hardcore brainwashing thing going on (and as anyone who's paid attention to religion as a social institution knows, indoctrination works best with younger subjects), and I can see why their kids should be kept far away from them.

But then again, what the FLDS is imposing on these kids is (initially) an idea. If the parental figures raised a hand to ‘em instead, or if the damned teen brides would just talk about when & how they were married, things would be infinitely simpler—but this seems exemplary of how our society deals with physical vs. mental abuse. The crime is not readily visible or easily discussed; therefore it becomes a whole lot harder to prove, which makes taking the kids away a hell of a lot harder to justify. Throw in religious freedom, the classic slippery slope argument (are we next to take children away from families whose religions produce the most violent crazies?), & my own quip about how there’s only one kind of person who fears an idea, and things get even more complicated. It is not necessarily wrong or illegal to introduce a child to a religion, or to raise them with their parent’s choice of moral upbringing. I'm all for religious tolerance—I personally don’t care if you worship a rock—but my tolerance has a pretty defined boundary of "An it harm none." I don't call a religion benevolent if it shrills on about how gender inequality is the most just way, if it requires the loss of one’s entire identity & rights to their own body, if it poses constant threat to a person's well-being, or if it comes with the overhanging worry that one may be kicked out eternally damned and lose their entire family should they run afoul of the wrong higher-up.

But the kids needed to go back to this spiritual cesspool, this thousands-strong patch of human blight.

But the gigantic list of problems with this particular case grouping; but how America's taxpayers are funding (and thus condoning) this group (& thus the group's illegal activities) under the umbrella of religious tolerance; but how a loophole in the welfare system has all those extra wives being "single mothers" and thus state-supported; but the current piles of steady-holding nonfiction bestsellers written by women who've escaped from these groups and who are determined to let everyone possible what's going on so this shit can be shut the fuck down. But, but, but.

Do I agree in this particular case that the kids should be returned? Fuck no. But I understand. I understand that FUBARing a case like this would set a precedent for any to follow; I understand that "suspected future danger, at some point" in no way equals "immediate danger."

I also understand the fallout that psychologists and social workers have to deal with after the fact, when they get to work the excommunicated or the escaped members through a systematic restructuring of everything they’ve ever known to be true. If there was a middle ground, where the members could be exposed to everyday society (in all its glory and horror) and be given that much more freedom to decide for themselves what’s best, then things might not be so bad. But fundamentalism doesn’t allow for a middle ground. The options, then, are to a) stand back or b) try to justify intrusion. The justification of this attempt failed. For the sake of the people who have been and shall be victimized by this group, we should hope that the next one’s does not.


(Post a new comment)


[info]korinacaffeine.livejournal.com
2008-06-04 04:51 am UTC (link)
I don't have anything to add, because I agree completely. I just wanted to say that I love all the posts you make; they're so informative and organized. It's like reading a more colloquial news article. <3

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[info]randomsome1
2008-06-04 04:55 am UTC (link)
With a lot more uses of the word "fuck," usually. :P Thankies!

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[info]threeoranges
2008-06-04 09:11 am UTC (link)
I'm currently reading Jon Krakauer's UNDER THE BANNER OF HEAVEN, which deals with a murder committed by members of the FLDS. Just reading the 1842 tract "The Peace Maker", a justification of polygamy still taken seriously by FLDS members today, is enough to make one feel queasy:

The government of the wife is therefore placed in the husband by the law of God for he is the head. I suffer not a woman saith the Lord to teach, or to usurp authority over a man, but to be in subjection...
A right understanding of this matter and a correct law properly executed would restore this nation to peace and order; and man to his true dignity, authority and government of the earthly creation. It would soon rectify the domestic circle and establish a proper head over the families of the earth, together with the knowledge and restitution of the whole penal law of God, and be the means of driving Satan, yea Satan, from the human mind...
Gentlemen, the ladies laugh at your pretended authority. They, many of them, hiss at the idea of your being lords of the creation... Nothing is further from the minds of our wives in general, than the idea of submitting to their husbands in all things, and of reverencing their husbands. They will boldly ridicule the idea of calling them sincerely in their hearts lords and masters. But God has positively required this of them...
Here, the wife is pronounced the husband's property, as much so as his manservant, his maidservant, his ox, his horse...


Personally, I agree that the law has no case this time - BUT that they should subject the FLDS communities to intense scrutiny in the future. None of this "privacy" stuff for them - the moment a 14- or 15-year-old is "taken to wife", the man involved should be charged with statutory rape. The FLDS have sense enough not to have official ceremonies for the extra wives, so as to avoid charges of polygamy: instead, the extra wives are officially registered as "single mothers", entitling them to state benefits. That avenue should be closed down, too. Krakauer demonstrates how one FLDS community, Colorado City, supports itself almost entirely on welfare: if a man with six wives and seventeen children had to support them all by his own efforts alone, I suspect polygamy would quickly lose its appeal for him.

Let the mothers keep their kids... but withdraw the welfare from them whilst they're in that community. (And charge the families who've kicked out the young men with "negligence", too - that's one aspect of the FLDS Krakauer hasn't yet mentioned!) Terrific links, thanks!

(Reply to this) (Thread)


[info]randomsome1
2008-06-04 01:17 pm UTC (link)
I found on the childbrides site where Krakauer, since the publication of that book, has been working a lot with the lost boys of the FLDS. I still don't know him well as an author but I think I like him as a person.


I forgot the state benefits thing for the extra wives. Will add, thanks! :D

(Reply to this) (Parent)


[info]wingedrivers
2008-06-04 05:10 pm UTC (link)
Man, seriously... WTF is wrong with this thing. I can't understand their actions. I mean, yeah, immediate danger is bad and all, but as long as that threat of abuse is there, shouldn't child services have every right to keep those kids away? I mean if there's proof of mental abuse/brain washing doesn't that mean that those kids need to be taken away?

Aaaaaaaargh sometimes things bother me too much to really think clearly. *that and I woke up ten minutes ago*

(Reply to this) (Thread)


[info]randomsome1
2008-06-04 11:09 pm UTC (link)
The question there becomes "What point does it become a valid threat of abuse?" Say X (normal) kid has Y parents and one of the parents was abused as a child. Statistically, that once-abused parent is very likely to turn around and abuse their child. Should the child be taken away, just in case? It's a hell of a line to have to draw. And when freedom of religion gets into things then all kinds of hell is had. At what point does it become state intrusion? They're having the worst time now proving whose kids belong to what parents. Getting them to give an accurate description of what goes on in there would be damned near impossible and would have tons of righteous people on the sidelines shrieking about religious prosecution. Never again the Burning Crusade, you-- Oh, wait, that's WoW. N/m.

(Reply to this) (Parent) (Thread)


[info]wingedrivers
2008-06-05 07:19 am UTC (link)
But still. What about the kids who have proof of abuse now? I mean... that's just sick, throwing those kids back into that kind of a situation y'know? Where they'll probably be worse treated 'cause of the media 'n at hammering all over this...

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[info]randomsome1
2008-06-05 03:14 pm UTC (link)
Where they'll possibly be treated worse and then have it covered up that much more carefully, or possibly have the evidence disappear into Jeff's crematorium. But to keep the kids away based solely on that is essentially to claim that wrongdoers can never change for the better.

And IIRC, there was only one kid out of the 400some who actually came out about being abused. The rest kept their mouths shut. That one girl is supposedly in a safer place now.

(Reply to this) (Parent) (Thread)


[info]wingedrivers
2008-06-05 05:48 pm UTC (link)
Mrow, I know, I know. Sometimes I wish we could go over the boundaries, but then that'd be wrong and open the floodgate for all kinds of evil shit. (and it doesn't help that our county SUCKS when it comes to mental patients who are also criminals. aaaaaaaaaargh...)

I mean, there HAS to be some religious community out there that practices this faith and isn't fuckin' evil and insane. I mean, religious freedom is great, but how many of these places really treat each other humanly well? Is it that rare to find human goodness?

(Reply to this) (Parent) (Thread)


[info]randomsome1
2008-06-05 08:50 pm UTC (link)
Practices this particular faith, I doubt it. There's just too many problems within the context of the belief system that don't lend themselves to anything resembling rationality. (You remember when I linkdropped on you that one time about how the book of Mormon literally says that people who aren't white aren't white because God hates them?)


I think it's not rare to find humans practicing good intentions, but their intentions don't seem to work out so well in the long run. Otherwise I think it comes down to each individual. I've seen Christians that really truly practiced the Jesus love thing; I've seen supposedly hippie Pagans turn around and go spastic--but then, the constantly weighing & measuring philosophies vs. actions gets tiring fast.

(Reply to this) (Parent)


[info]shikomekidomi
2008-06-05 03:27 am UTC (link)
Well, I agree that these people appear to be scum and some of their ideas do make them a danger to children. The medical issues and attempts at marrying twelve and thirteen year olds are particularly troubling. Some of the misogyny is a bit more of a grey area--not that its somehow less wrong but that it's a lot harder to get backing to take people's children away from them over it, particularly given the number of religions with varying degrees of promoting gender inequality.
So, as you say, it's either stand back or come up with a very solid case for intrusion. This is why I hold the best form of government to be benevolent dictatorship (justification, I don't need no stinkin' justification)...the problem being dictatorships don't STAY benevolent. So we have to make do with the half measures of a representative republic where people have rights (which are necessary to protect the few from the many). Wasn't it Hannibal Lecter who said half-measures are the curse of the modern era or something to that effect? Smart man, but the advantage of half-measures is that we can avoid the problems in the extremes.
Still, why are you always down on the hardcore brainwashing? Brainwashing is how society keeps itself alive. Their society is just a particularly repugnant one.

(Reply to this) (Thread)


[info]randomsome1
2008-06-05 03:42 am UTC (link)
I'm down on the brainwashing because I strongly believe that in order to protect ourselves from others and to properly progress we need to be able to think for ourselves, and when we're taught that we need to accept something unconditionally as Truth then we take a step back. And especially when that's hammered in with fear used as nails, then rationality is taken out of the picture and the people become yet another body in the faceless, senseless, frothing masses.

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[info]shikomekidomi
2008-06-05 03:46 am UTC (link)
Right, so I'll use fear to hammer the 'think for yourself' nails in to promote my similar beliefs. It's all good.
And on certain issues rationality will never be in the picture. Basic morality comes to mind. Not the advanced stuff that you do have to work out for yourself, but the basic -hurting people is wrong- type things.

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[info]randomsome1
2008-06-05 03:59 am UTC (link)
"If you wear red, don't obey your husband's every command, and speak of this to anyone that isn't us, you'll be beaten raped or murdered/lose your family/go STRAIGHT TO HELL" not quite = to "These people don't think for themselves or question the world around them. They fear wearing overalls and having ponytails because of their email forwards, they reject using toothpaste and deodorant because someone somewhere might be of a contrary religious belief, and they truly believe that politicians are pure of heart. Don't be them."

Heh, I motion that "Don't hurt other people" is a very rational thing. You wouldn't want to be hurt, so don't try to hurt the other person because unless they're a sick puppy they're not gonna want to be hurt either.

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[info]shikomekidomi
2008-06-05 04:06 am UTC (link)
But can I say that if you go around believing politicians are pure of heart, you'll be robbed blind, forced into senseless war, and possibly have your underage children taken advantage of by said politicians (hey, it happens way too much)?

Really, I don't see the rationality in your last sentences at all. Caring about what other people want is, in and of itself, irrational-at least above and beyond how what they want affects how they act towards us. That is to say, that without that spark of irrational morality, we'd all be sociopaths.
Not that sociopaths aren't often irrational in other ways, but they're more rational in some.
I'm not so foolish as to says that pure rationality is best.

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[info]randomsome1
2008-06-05 04:43 am UTC (link)
Still doesn't quite = "eternal damnation." :P Not the best example, perhaps--though I did put the qualifier in there of "not quite".

And some things can't necessarily be rationalized. Speaking with a lot of small children, for example. You can't sit a six year old down and say "Let me tell you about this guy called Kant" and truly expect to get anywhere.

But if you have to stop a kid from hitting another kid and they ask why, what are you gonna say? The cop-out is "Because I said so" and every child knows this. The explanation, though, would almost invariably be "How would you feel if they were hitting you instead?" And what's the foundation for making this work? Motivation through fear again, perhaps--what if kid A turns around and knocks kid B into the wall--but also a motion towards sympathy (which is what the sociopaths lack) and a simple cause&effect. And as our success as a species has hinged upon us being social critters, non-violent interaction becomes a bit of a basic necessity. (And the what-ifs and cause&effect questions are hardly illogical morality in action.)

Maybe the lack of a teal deer in the previous post was what caused confusion.

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[info]shikomekidomi
2008-06-05 04:53 am UTC (link)
What's best for a society and what's best for an individual are not always the same, regardless of what utilitarianists would tell you.
And you're right that eventually you can build things up with reasoning, but the initial levels are installed differently. You can start with fear and voodoo logic (be nice to people and they'll be nice back) and then motion towards sympathy, yes. But without establishing cause and effect, 'how would you feel' and especially sympathy are nicely illogical. Useful, though. Logic is only one tool, even if one of the best.
Eh, I suppose proper fear-mongering may be a matter of degree.

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[info]randomsome1
2008-06-05 05:26 am UTC (link)
Teal deer or it's just empty words.

So because the initial thought is rooted in rationality, the fact that one might not be able to immediately explain it to a small child as rationality makes it completely and perpetually irrational? You might wanna skim over the thread again--otherwise it looks like you're just purposefully misreading things.

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[info]shikomekidomi
2008-06-05 05:36 am UTC (link)
Hrm, no if that's what it sounds like I said, then I've merely failed to convey myself properly. To take another tack...
Rationality can be applied to morality but morality is nonrational. Which is what I meant when I said you can start building on morality with logic. When you're doing things 'because they're right', it's not because of some logic. Logic, at best helps work out what is right when its not immediately obvious by extrapolating from your original nonlogical principles. Telling someone not to hurt others because they wouldn't like it if they got hurt isn't the same as telling them not to hurt others because they might get hurt back (for one thing the second implies it's fine if the others are helpless).
But the initial thought was never rooted in rationality--though making sure other people around you are moral is probably useful for you.
Now how did I get started on this again.... Something about brain washing... I am too easy to get on tangents. I really should take your advice and go reread the whole thing.

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[info]randomsome1
2008-06-05 03:18 pm UTC (link)
Sweet Jesus, I was beginning to think I'd lost you to the body snatchers. Though if that was the case, I'd be sure to rule your half of the country--okay, the smoking remains of your half of the country--with a good miming of regret.

You've missed the hinge of your argument, how morality itself is & is rooted in irrationality. From what I understand & everything I've picked up in philosophy classes, morality is rooted in rationality but frequently turns into something else when allowed to get up and wander about on its own. Without a good grip on both, you end up with things like shriekingly crazy fundamentalist groups. That type of group commandeering the term morality is generally what puts me off from using it--and that's what your above looks like it's aiming for.

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[info]sirena_lune
2008-06-06 02:47 am UTC (link)
In my opinion/experience, emotional or psychological abuse > the physical kind. I mean, I can get used to physical abuse to the point that I can ignore the pain (it'll heal eventually, right?), but when people start messing around in your head it stays there. DX The fact that it can't really be proven just makes it a thousand times more dangerous.

I really liked wingedrivers solution. :DDD Though withholding welfare might hurt the kids, though. :/

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